" I'm sure this will go down in long term history as one of the stupidest ideas to ever be forced upon people by their government.
People will look back and wonder how we ever let someone with no investment and no responsibility for problems or outcome invade other peoples homes, and plant a destructive predator in their midst.....and make them pay for it to boot. "

" Outfitters ruined the elk hunting for locals years ago by thier insistant greed. "

" Got a news flash for you , Fritz ( and all commercial hunters and outfitters out there). When you begin considering Big Game as a monetary resource for Man's benefit first , you've already lost. The economic argument has no place whatsoever in discussions about wildlife management until all natural conservation tools have been applied ( read: Wolves, Cougars, Bears x 2 , Eagles, Coyotes, other Raptors, et al ) . I'm sorry that the frail Homo Sapiens is 8th down the list on the Predator-Prey chain , but that's just the way it is. Your whining about losing a livelihood carry no weight, for you are not entitled to hunt and kill for a living , only privileged to do so. And that privilege is conditional : you must allow the wild predators to have precedence. Man's real role in wildlife management is far far less than he presumes, and lies in different vectors than entertaining rich hunters and the satisfying the lust of blood sport. Which really isn't sportsmanship at all...not with .300 H & H rifles or Ought Sixes. I'll grant you full hunting-killing privleges for all the Elk you can take if you use nothing you didn't make with your own hands and wits: stone spear point , obsidian knife, fur garments. I'll relent and allow you a Bic lighter to start your little fires with , but when you and your clients start hunting on foot, totally Aboriginally , then an only then will you earn your rightful place in the Predator-Prey Hierarchy and be entitled to the societal esteem that you take for granted. Leave Mr Smith and Mr Wesson and Mr. Colt and Mr Ruger and Mr Remngton and Mr Winchester home when you take that obese sclerotic wealthy --uh , "Hunter --- from Florida on his Kill Of A Lifetime... Please remind him the Wolves were here first , and will be here last, and we will be competing for our camp meat today... "

" The way I see it, if they shoot down the wolf hunting season, the only option is for us hunters to control them ourselves. If and when you do shoot one, make sure you never tell anyone, not even your wife. Don't approach it or take any pictures. Just get out of the area and leave it. It looks like it may come to this. They are knocking the heck out of the elk and moose numbers in my area. "

" Dew, it is very kind of you to decide how you will "allow" other people to live their lives. That is the very heart of the wolf issue, folks like you deciding how we can use our property, what you will "allow" us to do on our own land and our public land, what animals you will "allow" us to have on our land, etc. What a lovely person you must be as you draw up your list of what you will "allow" us to do. "

" DewD, I got a flash for you too. Whether we like it or not economics play a role in everything we do. Wildlife populations that provide economic benefits to man are usually sustainable in todays world while those that have little economic value cannot successfully compete with other uses. I am a retired wildlife biologist and I have seen this to be true without fail throughout my career. That said, there is no greater opponent of those that feel it is ok to buy their way hunting to success than me. I'm 59 and I'm still happiest walking the backcountry hunting the hard way. Your argument that all hunters need to use stone age tools however is ridiculous.

Man has always been part of the predator-prey heirarchy as you call it since the day the first human picked up a stone tool. We have the same right to supplement our diet with good wild meat as any non-human predator.

I don't have any problem with sharing the woods with wolves. Their is no reason that they cannot be managed at a sustainable level. in balance with other legitimate interests What I cannot understand is why wolf advocates think that the many people that have hunted the wolf range all their lives should meekly step aside and accept a significant loss of opportunity from a resource that they have conserved for many years. The amount of funds for conservation of wildlife expended by hunters dwarfs that contributed by non hunting environmentalists. There would be no significant prey base for wolves if it had not been for hunters. It is arrogant for newcomer environmentalists to say that hunters have no stake in the wildlife resources of the northern rockies.

When the wolf release was first proposed it was with an agreed level of what constitutes success. Now that that has been exceeded they want to change the rules. This kind of approach never works. It reinforces the belief that these people have no credibility. Its time for the wolf advocates to work on their people skills.


. "

" DewD, since when was hunting a "right of passage"? Or a proof of manhood?

Man was a hunter before he was a farmer. Hunting is a heritage and time honored tradition, especially in Wyoming. No good has or ever will come of the reintroduction of "Canadian" wolves.

"

" It's all about a Level Playing Field. Of course man is a Hunter. And a Gatherer. And a Gross Consumer. I totally support trophy hunting of Wolves in the same vein as Cougar and Black Bear limited quota. Wolves are wildlife, too. But you'd never know it from Wyoming's Wolf "Management" Plans. When the only tool for "managing" Wolves as wildlife is killing them , the whole darn system is broken. When the commercial Elk Hunters start whining that Wolves are taking " their" Elk , they should be sent back to 7th grade for basic biology and civics lessons. The Elk are not " your " Elk and you cannot ask the rest of us to guarantee you a living taking them , or destroying one big game animal to favor another based on economics and prejudice ( Money and the Hate Factor). The Wolf was here first, and it deserves respect and range to roam beyond the National Zoo that is Yellowstone. Man has always been a hunter, but it's time we give that its full course...Men must necessarily and naturally compete with the Wolf for his privilege to kill. The Wolf depends on killing prey for his livelihood. With humans, it is optional and highly conditional . Given time the outfitters would find they can easily co-exist with Wolves and the Elk herds will be better for it. Not necessarily in quantity of Elk , but in quality. We've only had Wolves in NW Wyoming for 12 years. That is no time at all to be drawing any hard and fast conclusions whatsoever, not from any realistic biologic or ecologic time scale. Outfitters and Ranchers et all are grossly overreacting to Wolves, and negatively to the extreme. Too bad , boys, but you've got to make room for the Top Dog now. You don;t own this world and Wyoming's wild lands , you share them. So start sharing. It isn't all about Man. The native Wolf should have never been exterminated in the first place. Frankly , great good will come from Wolves. "

" I see DewD wants to go back to the stone age. More power to you buddy - the rest of us prefer to stay here in the present. Good post Marion well said. Here's a news flash for you DewD - man is at the top of the food and predator chain. "

" r u awake online editor? "

" Wyoelkhunter, you have to forgive DewD, he's still trying to get over the shock of not being able to make the grade up on Mountain Creek! And he know's what I'm talking about. I whole heartedly agree with your biological assesment, we can have wolves but they need to be managed at a sustainable level like you say. What DewD and several others don't grasp is we don't have "unlimited" wolf habitat. Don't you realize we don't have unlimited "pristene" wilderness, even in Yellowstone man makes all the management decisions. Open your eyes DewD and get off your anti-hunting band wagon and consider the whole picture. "

" Wyoelkhunter your comments are excellent. I feel the same as you that I am also willing to share the woods with the wolves. And if the Game and Fish manage them the same way as bears and lions I will be able to buy a wolf license every year. Hunters and sportsmen are indeed some of the best conservationists out there, and it is true that because of their efforts that the prey populations for wolves are where they are at now. As long as modern man is in the equation nature in this country cannot be left to its own devices in its entirety. It takes the management skills of man to keep the wildlife in a healthy and sustainable balance. If the environmentalist had there way hunting would be gone and the wildlife would suffer from huge swings in population. Man has always been a part of the predator prey equation and just because I can go buy meat from the grocery store doesn't mean I want to or have to. It's time to let the states take control so the wolf populations can be controlled and hopefully with the help of the many hunting and sportsman groups we can try to help the elk and moose populations that are now in decline in certain areas. "

" Dear Tguide----- I actually have considered the whole picture. Spending 15 years in and out of hunting camps taught me that the outfitter hunting "business" is fraught with slobs and greedy SOB's . If there is an honest , law abiding , selfless outfitter at work anywhere in the Absarokas, I have yet to meet him or even hear about him. There are ruthless killers and vicious predators at work in the mountains, and they should be radio collared and trapped and relocated or.... ? They are the beasts of the two legged variety, hominids not canids . It is impossible to defend commercial big game hunting if you've been there. The individual sport hunter is another matter, and I have no qualm with the true sportsman. It's just that I don't see many these days. Go Wolves !!!! And exactly what is this Mountain Creek thing you are keep talking about ? More BS lies around the campfire ?? Cripes, I haven't worked Mountain Creek for 32 years now...I have NEVER claimed to be a good mountain cowboy or guide or anything other than someone who wanted to enjoy the Absaroka mountains . Hard to do with the company you must keep these days. More Wolves, please. "

" DewD your the one that was bragging several weeks ago about being a hunting guide on mountain creek, never carried a gun until your "outfitter" made you because of bears! Then you just admit spenting 15 years in and out of hunting camps! Then you say you haven't worked mountain creek for 32 years, so I guess you do know what I'm "talking about". If you've spent that much time in and out of camps, what were you doing if all these outfitters were such jerks? There are bad eggs in every profession, outfitting included, but, I take offense to the fact that you call everyone a renegade! I'm a guide for one of those good ones, and we DON'T break the laws or over hunt our country. Because you had a bad experience somewhere along the road doesn't give you the right to judge all. What company do you keep? Go Wyoming Wolf Plan! "

" With all the stipulations they our putting on hunting the wolves, I don't think the success rate is going to be that high anyway. I don't think they will kill enough of them with a hunting season to controll them. "

" Enviros are greedy, naive bullies. They are going to have what they want no matter the cost to other people, or even if it is good or bad for the environment.
Take a look at Yellowstone elk herds, what is left of them. Where once there were 100s on a hillside meadow, there are now tens or none at all. Over 65% of them were gone by a year ago. They haven't had guts enough to count this year I guess.
Where will the girzzlies go that depend on elk for part of their diet? Do wolfers really give a hoot? and the grizzlies truly are endangered. The wolves are not, they were just brought in from Canada because well funded enviros demanded them....at someone else's expense of course. "

" As a landowner, my experience with outfitters has been a disappointing one. Of course, they cannot be all bad. I think we need to control the population of wolves and elk. You have to admit that they will cut down on the brucellosis problem. "

" Look at www.saveourelk.com for some graphic pics of wolf activity. It's the exact reason they need managed. "

" On two different occasions in the 90's, Fritz and company took us into the Absarokas on 5 day pack trips for the sole purpose of enjoying the wilderness...we did no hunting at all. The entire time we were out, the guides were glassing for game, because the next week hunting season opened, and they needed to know where to take clients, in order to get their trophy as quickly as possible, since they were paid by the trophy and not by the day. On the 1997 trip, Fritz was very outspoken about the reintroduction of wolves, how it would hurt the outfitting business, and how angy he was with the idea of protecting them. At that time (and I suspect even now) there were very large herds of Elk in the areas where we went. We saw moose, mountain sheep, elk, mule deer, and evidence of grizzlies on those trips. The Absarokas were full of game. We would have been very pleased to see or hear a wolf or two, but none were there. It's only been 10 years....has there been a wolf population explosion? If so, why are there so many hungry elk every winter at the Elk Refuge in Jackson?
We live in Iowa, where whitetails are abundant...but now are being targeted for hunting in a big way because the farmers are complaining that they eat too much of their corn in the fields. When are people going to learn that we are not the only creatures on earth that want to live and enjoy life? Wyoming has a slogan that says "Wyoming Wildlife --Worth the Watching". It doesn't say "Worth the Killing"! "

" W W very good web site . Everybody need to take 30 min to view it!! Its a shame either way any of us look at it. "

" Mari your so far out in left field I'm not even going to comment on your comments! "

" Mari, How many wolves do you want we 'll send you as many as we got to help you controll your whitetail "

" Jackson Hole's elk herd count is in...over 12,300 animals, elk survival rates 25 per 100, more elk on the National Elk Refugee then previous decade. The number of calves per cow has increased for four years in a row...How does this fit into the "Wolves have eaten all the elk and are decimating the Wyoming herds" argument? "

" Poor Mari! I have seen that sight Good and it is disturbing.Only the sick and weak they claim.Mari if your deer are not regulated then disease and starvation will take over.The farmer will then be forced to charge us the consumer for his losses because he will have sustained lost crop revenue.Yes there is a wolf explosion out west unless you talk to old Tim W. "

" In answer to your question Mari, YES there has been a wolf population explosion. "

" Tguide: If you have an opinion, this is a perfect place to exress it... otherwise, you just have nothing to say.

real world: Send as many wolves as it would take to wipe out all of the stinking corporate hog farms in Iowa (and a send some cougars to help them) ...the deer are welcome to all the corn they want. As far as I'm concerned, deer are not a problem. The big farmers plant their corn rows with as much seed as they can, - plant the rows as close together as they can from road to road, leaving no ditches, so that they can harvest bigger crops every year. 50 years ago, farms were smaller, people weren't so greedy, water wasn't polluted with nitrates, pesticides and chemical runoff, and the air didn't smell like hog manure 24/7.

50 years from now, Wyoming will have little wildlife to speak of, few big trees left, and a shortage of good water, but it will have plenty of methane gas holding tanks, mined out areas, and land not fit for grazing. What a shame! We have learned the hard way here in Iowa. Wyoming is going to pay the price for their endless appetite for making money at the expense of the wildlife and theland unless it wakes up now.

If you want to label me one of your "Enviros", you can. It's easy to call names and close minds to other's ideas..but there are a whole lot of Iowans who will gladly put up with being called names if it would mean cleaning up our state. We aren't "tree huggers"...we just want to breathe fresh air again. Wyoming has always been a place that Iowans love to go to experience something beautiful and great. Don't spoil it. "

" Poor little Mari.....has lost her lamb! "

" Mari, with those comments I sure hope you don't purchase any corn products. I mean those greedy greedy farmers that have to produce at high levels so that they can have a halfway decent standard of living. I would think about the food you eat and where it came from before bashing farmers.

Question for you, what is your level of expertise when it comes to wildlife management or land management for that matter? Are you so shocked that wolves avoided a large outfitting party? Wyoming Game and Fish has done a good job of managing the wildlife in this state, and will continue to do so.

Your comment about methane and holding tanks tell me that you have been visiting environmentalist sites. Trust me you're not getting the whole story.

I'm willing to make a bet that Wyoming, unless of a nuclear war or terrorist act, will have a thriving wildlife population in 50 years, as long as we are allowed to manage wolves. "

" This story is eactly the kind of emotional scare tactics that justified the decision by our special interest legislature to allow wolves to be hunted on a "predator" basis, and gave kill happy males with adequacy issues 10 days to report the taking. Just how in the world is the Wyoming Department of Guts and Feathers going to be able to determine exactly where the wolves were shot - 'trophy' or 'predator' area? Did anyone think that through? The "me first" outfitters, guides, ranchers and weak hunters who can't make an honest living doing anything else still, unfortunately, have sway with the lawmakers who have the Bucking Horse mentality. As long as that exists, Wyoming will remain the Appalachia of the West. "

" DewD, Many wild species are also harvested as a 'cash crop" to feed a hungry planet; wild Salmon and Tuna are two that come to mind right off the bat, crab and many types of shell fish are also harvested in similar fashion. Both species, Tuna and Salmon are dwindling and hard pressed. Elk and Moose on the other hand can be regulated by man ensuring a strong and harvestable population. Sadly, man has reintroduced an apex predator that now works in opposition to these animals survival and utility to mankind. Following your reasoning to its logical, and final conclusion, man should not be harvesting anything as it will in time, with an ever growing population, put all other life forms in jeopardy. Meaning man is the animal that should be removed. Oxymoronic isn't it? Or, is that what you intend? You cannot have it both ways; it is what you mean or it is not what you mean.
"

" Tguide must know who I am ( I have no idea who he is...) , and my phone number is listed. He should call me , if he has the cojones to come out from behind his E-mail disguise. I would've done the same by now if I only knew for sure where to call . Tguide needs to hear some things straight from the source in order to get his facts straight. The only thing of consequence that ever happened to me in Mountain Creek when I was camptending and running pack train shuttles for Crossed Sabres Ranch , Burt Bell outfitter, 1975-76 was I had one helluva bad horse wreck between Cabin Creek and the Meadows , and was alone with eight head of horses at the time. I also had the hunter's rifles , duffles, and other goodies that the airlines delayed and needed to get into camp pronto. They had all the good horses in camp and I was running that 29 mile -2 pass trail alone with a lousy string of rank horses that had never been together . I was in no condition to ride and lead a string after that wreck, but damn lucky to be alive . I rode on in then back out the next day---alone--- with a severe concussion and double vision and some serious aches . 40 miles of pure Hades on a s__t green horse . Now that's my Mountain Creek story , briefly . What have you heard instead from the Liar's Club ? "

" Mari, How do you propose that we feed an ever growing hungry planet without large and efficient farms around the globe? In America alone we have 300 million mouths all wanting three meals, of their choice, each day. Poeple well out number wildlife here and on the rest of this tiny planet. This trend has no end in sight. So, may I ask, what is your solution? We have real problems now, and many, many more ahead of us. We are all in this together and pointing fingers, calling names and creating division will solve none of them now or ever. "

" Sorry DewD, don't know who you are! But, I certainly sympathize with your wreck, been there... done that! "

" Once each of these myriad laws suites ends, and nothing has been actually solved, who will hold the groups that bring these suites to account? These are our tax dollars being flushed down the toilet and for what, to make these self appointed experts and keepers of all wolves feel good that they tried to do something that science already has the correct answer to? Can we the tax payers then file a suite to reclaim our squandered funds? "

"







I have to back Mari on one important point she made. Its easy to sit out in the wide open spaces of Wyoming and believe that it can never get ruined by development, Or perhaps. that we will always have abundant wildlife because our Game and Fish Dept will look out for us. In my lifetime the people of Florida, the Carolina's, maybe Maryland and many other places probably thought the same thing. Rural areas with abundant wildlife have become stinking cities within only a few decades. Wyoming is one of the few remaining wild areas left. There is no more after this.

Almost every day a new drilling permit is announced or a new subdivision. In my own town of Sheridan quality of life has declined markedly in the past 3-4 years. More noise, more traffic, more dust, higher prices, higher taxes, less cutomer service. It goes on and on.

You may think that the Game and Fish Dept can work miracles. If more winter range and more sagebrush is lost carrying capacities of wildlife range will eventually decline, perhaps drastically. This is basic biology. We are already seeing this in some deer populations. Several key antelope migration routes are threatened. We feed elk in western Wyoming but this may no longer be an option when CWD strikes these herds and it will. Wyoming is dry country for the most part and cannot support the densities of game that wetter more productive climes do. If one seasonal habitat declines in productivity due to development then the entire range is affected. If dense development occurs in key areas we may see declines in carrying capacity over wide areas. Surely some populations may adapt but can we really count on this? Wyoming Game and Fish Department will be powerless to stop this. I know for a fact that they are being held back from dealing with oil and gas problems by pure politics. IWe cannot stop development but we can sure demand that it is planned responsibly to minimize impacts on other resources.

Go ahead and make fun of Mari ibecause she favors wolves. Development is rapidly destroying wildlife habitat all over this country and it is accelerating. If you think that Wyoming is immune you are terribly naive. Focus only on the wolves and ignore the many threats to habitat and you will find out that the loss of game will occur anyway








i "

" WyoElkHunter pretty much lays it out. "

" I would most definitively agree with development being a huge problem. It is in Cody. And across our state. Drought and global warming are also huge. Check out this link and pay attention to May, June, July, and August; "http://waterdata.usgs.gov/usa/nwis/dvstat/?site_no=06279940&por_06279940_2=801782,00060,2" "

" Development is a problem, which is one reason that instead of spending money on lawsuits to keep the wolves protected maybe the environmental groups should use their money to buy up some of the land for sale.

However that said, I still would bet that 50 years from now Wyoming will have a decent wildlife population.

I also don't have a problem with the wolves themselves, my problem is when the target population before reintroduction is set and agreed upon, and then when the population goes far above that level, people still throw a stink when they are delisted. I also have a problem with people who overly criticize farmers who have a rough enough time making it in this world while provided a service that every human being needs. "

" Doesn't anyone see the nexus that if the wolf was still listed, the designation would stop run away development in the state because of habitat needs. Not to mention that flatlanders would be scared to move here because there are wolves in Wyoming. I don't think the wolf haters can see the big picture or the benefits of reintroduction. "

" Thank God!

I was wondering when this whole discussion might head toward some reason and reality.

Signing on with Mari, Crazy horse . . .

Much more of a problem. . .We are sqeezing the wildlife pop. too much. . .

I also agree with Wyelkhunter, that it can be managed reasonalbiy. but it is up to all sides to be reasonable and "work on their people skills" "

" The wolf being listed hasn't stopped any development yet, nor would it unfortunately. "

" I just have to come back and comment on Jim's remark about farmers. He says that he "has a hard time with people who overly criticize farmers who have a rough enough time making it in this world, while providing a service that every human being needs". I don't know what kind of farmers he is talking about. I must tell you that our Iowa farmers are verywell equipped and financed. A lot of what they produce goes into alternative fuels. My husband, a retired small farmer and engineer, works during harvest season for a corporate farmer. His employer is your typical Iowa farmer these days. He has 13 tractors, 3 of which are valued at around $200,000.00 each. In addition he has 3 large grain carts, which hold 60,000 bushels of grain, and can fill a semi that holds 1000 bushels in 90 seconds. He owns a combine that is valued at $230,000, and it has a corn head valued at $80,000 and a bean head valued at $60,000. All of this equipmenmt is less than three years old. He owns three semis, which haul grain, lime, fertilizer, etc. all year long. They run an average of 101, 500 miles miles per year. In addition he owns pickups, jeeps, etc. that run an average of 54,300 miles per year. Over 60,000 bu. of his corn goes to ethanol production. Thousands more go into biodiesel and into hog and cattle feed. I could go on and on. Crop farming is risky because of the weather...but farmers are doing quite well, thank you, in Iowa. There is a general misconception that our farmers are poor and deeply in debt. Our corporate farmers take advantage of huge government handouts every year.

In resonse to Wyoelkhunter --CWD is in the Iowa deer herds now, but it isn't being talked about. In spite of that, we have some of the fattest cornfed deer in the country available for hunting. They really look great...and we have a program here that enables hunters to kill deer and donate them to a food depository for homeless shelters. Maybe Iowans should get into the outfitting business!

And believe it or not, we have urban sprawl! A lot of our $5000 to $9000 per acre farmland has been condemned around our small cities and is being changed into housing developments and strip malls.

As for me being an "Enviro"...I am not a member of any environmental group...have never laid eyes on a methane gas holding tank except in a photo...and definitely do not "hug trees" or burn down development houses. I just love Wyoming!! How about that! And I also think that Canis Lupus is a beautiful animal with a complex society that is suffering because a lot of disgruntled hunters and ranchers want their way with them. Iowa has its coyotes...they live in our cornfields and along our rivers. They do not kill enough livestock for Iowans to get into a tizzy about and want them all shot. We all know that coyotes just produce more little coyotes when their population is decreased by hunting and poisoning. They don't call them "The Trickster" for nothing....luckily, we still have enough small wild animals living in our state that coyotes can survive very well here. "